Conventional baseball wisdom states that the absolute worst time to talk with a given team's manager is after a loss.

But conventional is not one of the words that come to mind when thinking of Cardinals manager Tony La Russa.

For one thing, La Russa, 54, wears his hair stylishly long.

As if he's 34, and it's still 1979, not 1999.

And it is a good bet that there is some Grecian Formula added to the mix, too, since La Russa's mop is dark brown/black (with just a touch of grey).

Hard to imagine Tony La Russa in a Whitey Herzog flat-top, isn't it?

But La Russa, even after a loss, is often more than willing to share, with reporters, his views of that night's game

Or anything else that pertains to baseball.

But for the reporters, patience is required.

Persistence, too.

And a bit of courage, as well.

That's because there is a prescribed order to the way media do their post-game work with the manager of the local baseball team.

That order consists of three waves of media visitors to the manager's office.

At the game's conclusion, the clubhouse is closed to all non-team members, including media, for a 10-15 minute cooling-off period.

Then the clubhouse doors are opened, at which time all three waves are allowed simultaneous entry.

But the first-wavers get first crack at Tony La Russa.

The first wave is made up of wire service, and TV and radio guys (and gals) who are most interested in a quick quote or sound bite.

First-wavers often are operating on severe time deadlines (the 10:00 pm news, for example), and are generally seeking an edgy quote, with or without an on-camera raised eyebrow from the man in charge.

Keep in mind-these folks are the first humans that La Russa sees, other than his players and coaches, after a ballgame.

And the TV and radio guys get up close and personal, with cameras and microphones stationed closerthanthis.

Generally, the first question or two is a softball, and La Russa answers in a straightforward fashion.

But then, somebody looking for that reaction shot will ask a tough question--or, what La Russa interprets as a "stupid" question, and the Redbird manager erupts.

Now, La Russa does not erupt with the fury of a Hal McRae, the former Royals manager who, in a pique of anger, lost his cool in front of reporters (and a TV camera) and flung something (an ashtray?) in the general direction of the assembled writers, one of whom left McRae's office bleeding.

But make no mistake.

Even without throwing office knick-knacks, La Russa is generally successful, using both verbal and non-verbal techniques, in conveying his lack of happiness with that night's outcome.

The questions posed during the first wave are generally short, and La Russa's answers are generally brief.

Which pleases both sets of parties in this not-so-elaborate dance between, to borrow a phrase, "Men at Work".

After his initial outburst, La Russa's office generally quiets, and after a small number of additional queries, the wire service and electronic guys leave and head back to their respective studios with contrite yet satisfied expressions on their faces.

That's because their notebooks, tape recorders, and video cameras are full of what their bosses like: interesting but brief quotes, bits of audio, and video head-shots from inside the manager's office.

The entire first wave takes all of five or ten minutes, and most of the post-game shots you see on your local news sports report, or on a cable TV highlights show--those shots were obtained during those first five or ten minutes.

Which generally leaves the sportswriters, the beat writers and columnists, alone with La Russa in his office.

Generally, while the electronic guys were looking for soundbites with La Russa, the sportswriters were either hanging on the periphery of the gaggle of cameras and microphones or out in the locker room, chatting up a player before he showers.

Usually, the beat writers also have early edition game-story deadlines to worry about, so their inquiries, while ususally less confrontational in tone, still have a quick question-quick answer cadence to them.

So the beat writers make up the second wave.

Sometimes, the beat writers will ask questions that La Russa answered in the first wave.

But in a predictable yet proper sequence, the beat writers generally acknowledge their tardiness, and La Russa prefaces his answers to their questions by remarking that he's 'said this already'.

Usually, the second time around, though, La Russa's answers are more thoughtful, more polished,and do not possess their earlier edginess.

The second wave, like the first, generally requires no more than five or ten minutes of La Russa's time.

And as the beat writers make their way back to their word processors in the press box, notebooks full of scribbles, they leave behind one additional group of sportswriters.

This final group consists of the columnists and feature writers: the third wave.

Most of the time, these writers have already posted their columns, so their mission is one of collecting material for future reference.

And the manager's office is the place to be while the third-wavers begin to go about their business, what with team owners, broadcasters, the head trainer, that night's official scorer, and various celebrities and friends of La Russa stopping by to say hello and/or deliver (un)important information.

Usually, most of these visitors don't stay long (another five or ten minutes). But their presence and subsequent departure is, in most cases, an important ingredient because their chit-chat serves to further insulate La Russa from the game played earlier that evening.

Which, for the patient third-waver, is a good thing, as far as first-rate baseball talk is concerned.

Because, when he lets his guard down, no one is more fun to talk baseball with than Tony La Russa.

But it's a certain kind of fun, because, when talking baseball with Tony La Russa, you'd better bring a load.

For starters, you'll need a regular presence at Cardinals games, superior baseball knowledge, understated self-confidence, and good listening skills.

In other words, third-wavers must earn the respect of Tony La Russa.

Every day.

That's because, during the pre-game chats that take place between media and La Russa prior to the next day's game, the whole process begins over again--with the pre-game version of La Russa, the focused, concentrating, sensitive, and secretive La Russa, unwilling to talk about anything that he believes reduces his team's chances of winning the game that follows.

Some people, many people, wouldn't call this kind of interaction, with the aforementioed parameters, fun at all.

La Russa himself doesn't call it fun.

But for those media willing to make the necessary investment of time and energy, most nights, post-game, Tony La Russa is a sportswriter's delight.

Just bring your thick skin.

And your surfboard, baby.

Ride the wave.

The interview that follows was recorded on the morning of July 31, 1999, and is not a post-game conversation.

Post-game on the night of July 30, La Russa agreed to appear live, at 11:05 am, on the Saturday Sports Review.

His call arrived a few minutes later than expected, which wasn't unexpected, since July 31 is baseball's no-waivers-needed trading deadline.

The second La Russa "interview" will be posted, in this space, during the second week of November.

StLSO: Joining us live via telephone is Cardinals manager Tony La Russa. Good morning, Tony.

La Russa: Good morning.

StLSO: One of the questions I was going to ask you, Tony, was how often, on July 31, at trade deadline time, you are in contact with your General Manager, Walt Jocketty, regarding deals and the like.

But just before we went on, you told me you just got off the phone with Jocketty.

La Russa: Well, that's exactly right. Today is the culmination of all of the conversations that Walt has had, almost non-stop, for the last month. He wanted me to be available, so we've already talked two or three times this morning.

That's definitely Walt's responsibility, to put the guys in uniform. But he asks for input from the managers and all of the scouts.

StLSO: By my count, Tony, you've managed over 3,000 big league baseball games. That's over 3,000 pre-game shows on the radio. As a fan, I've enjoyed listening to them, and learning from them--in Chicago, a couple in Oakland while on vacation, and now in St. Louis. I'd like to welcome you to our program. Our listeners have heard your recorded voice, from conference calls and the Winter Meetings, but never live.

So, once again, welcome to the show.

La Russa: Well, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you.

StLSO: Tony, there are lots of status-type questions that we need to ask. I know you'll answer them briefly. First, your health. You were hospitalized for a few days with what was reported to be stomach problems.

La Russa: Well, you know, I just got a little careless. And I suffered the consequences. But I'm fine now.

StLSO: For our listeners, in your words, would you clarify your job status for now, and the future?

La Russa: My job status is this. There's a game to manage tonight.

And I was taught a couple of things early on, that have helped me survive all of these years.

One is, you don't talk about managers or coaches or anything other than the team, during the season.

Because that's what's important. And secondly, no matter what your contract is, whether you have security or you don't have security, it all depends on the job you are doing right now.

So I've always been taught to just focus on the season that you are playing. And when it [is over], everything works out at the end.

If you do a good job, and people have confidence that you are the guy that should have the club next year, then, that's the way it works.

StLSO: Your team's status, then. You're in third place, eleven games behind Houston and nine behind Cincinnati. You're tinkering with getting over .500 but not at .500 this late in the year. Do those words sting a little bit?

La Russa: Because everybody is so passionate [in St. Louis], I think it's all a part of being the manager. I don't expect them to be fair all the time, but the fans can try to be fair in their analyses.

But, as a manager, you're supposed to be a professional, whether you analyze who you are playing against or you analyze your own club or your own performance.

You have to try to analyze it objectively and fairly. And, based on what this club has gone through this year, the fact that we're right now, a game under .500, means that we have survived a lot of tough, very tough shots.

But our goal is to be a winning club first. And that means win more than you lose.

So we've been in that situation we were in last night about a half-dozen times, where we were right there, if we could just win, and put a nice little run on, and climb over .500, and you have a little cushion, then you go from there.

So, my answer is, there's two months to decide whether we can be a winning club.

And then, once you get over .500, you can see how big a winning club you are.

StLSO: Some of the less-pleasant parts of your job involve sending players to the minors--young players, veteran players. But I know that, a couple of weeks ago, you were lucky enough to be able to inform Kent Bottenfield of his selection to the All Star team.

La Russa: Well, you're right.

The most difficult part of my job is walking into the clubhouse after the club gets beat.

But right up there, on a personal note, is when you are messing with somebody's future.

Especially a veteran.

You know, a young guy, you can always know that, if he goes down now that, there's a very strong likelihood that he'll come back.

But there are a couple of real plusses to the job, on a personal note.

One would be telling a gentleman like Joe McEwing that he makes the club in spring training, and watching that reaction.

Another would be telling a first-time All Star, Kent Bottenfield. You see the thrill that passes before the guy's eyes.

It's one of the real fringe benefits of managing in the big leagues.

StLSO: Tony, I believe that your first All Star game in the big leagues was as a coach in the 1983 game at Comiskey Park. Is that right?

La Russa: No, actually, Harvey Kuenn, who managed the game that year, thought that I was more a lawyer than a baseball guy.

He told people that I wouldn't be around very long, and that I was just a lawyer who was masquerading as a manager.

So I was not invited to coach that game.

Later on [that year], we put on a second-half surge where we ended up winning 99 and getting into the playoffs.

So it turned out to be a pretty good year.

And my first year was '84. Joe Altobelli picked me for the San Francisco game.

StLSO: 1983 was a big year, as you said, Tony, for the White Sox. I was living in Chicago then, and I remember reading an article...and I wonder if you remember reading the same article, a Jerome Holtzman column at the end of that season that took great pains to note the importance to you, personally, as manager of that club, what that championship meant. Do you remember that story?

La Russa: Yeah I think I do.

You reflect back on those days.

I had very little managing experience, and I wasn't a very good player.

So there wasn't, the credentials were very shaky.

And the White Sox, it's a major market and you compete with the Cubs.

For Bill Veeck and Roland Hemond to give me the job, some people disagreed with that.

As we slowly got better, and finally having the division championship and winning 99 games that year, that was a great feeling because there was a time or two there where the club was struggling.

There was a lot of heat, and I remember that both of our daughter were born in '79 and '82 there.

It was difficult at times.

And to come back later, and pop the champagne, that was a terrific feeling.

StLSO: Tony, I really have a lot of admiration for, and I've said this on our airwaves, for what I observed when a couple of what I would call the radio veterans, on the stringer side, when they got to see you, after not seeing you for awhile. Those old-timers on the Chicago scene, you've got a lot of respect for them, and the feeling is mutual, isn't it?

La Russa: It was a great experience.

I mean, to be thrown into the fire like that.

It's a major market, so there's the TV, the radio, the newspapers, they all test you very strongly.

But I always felt like there was a real fairness to it.

I mean, if you stunk, they said you stunk.

But you mentioned Jerome [Holtzman], I feel that Jerome gave me my first compliment.

During that first two months that I managed the '79 club, I think, after how long, I don't know, he wrote one time that 'boy, this guy seems to have a feel for handling pitchers'.

I went 'wow'. That was well-received.

And I really appreciated that.

But in that market, there was a lot of competition among the media.

But I had a real sense of fairness there. It was a great learning experience.

In fact, Jim Leyland, who is in town with the Rockies, coached third base for us [in Chicago] for five years.

We all knew he was going to manage in the major leagues, so we made sure he was invited [to listen in to the post-game media sessions], anytime he wanted to.

[Leyland] would just sit and listen to all the [media] exchanges, and he'll tell you, he knew all of his baseball when he got there.

But the one thing that he learned about the media was that Chicago experience, because it was a terrific learning ground.

StLSO: Turning to the St. Louis Cardinals then. As you've said before, a real strength of your 1996 Cardinals NL Central-winning team was that club's starting pitching. Can you talk about that, once again?

La Russa: I remember getting the job, and you start looking closely at what had happened the last few years, and you had to feel for Joe Torre and the coaches.

Because they had really been victimized with disruptions in their team.

Coming from that Oakland and Chicago-anybody that wins, there's a certain stability that what you run out there-your rotation takes a lot of innings, they give you a chance to win every day.

Your position players, you're going to take some injuries and have some slumps.

But by and large, your nucleus is going to be out there a lot.

I remember when we looked at it, Joe (Torre) had to deal with Mike Morgan getting hurt and Danny Jackson having the illness.

We were talking along with Walt and the coaches.

We thought, with Donovan Osborne and hopefully Alan Benes, and if we could just pick up a couple of guys, that we felt had a history of taking the ball.

And we did. Walt made a terrific trade for Todd Stottlemyre and he signed Andy Benes, and those two guys just anchored our rotation.

The starting pitching became a very big strength on that '96 club that ended up winning.

StLSO: The highlights of the '99 season, to date, Tony, include Joe McEwing's hitting streak, Jimenez' no hitter, Tatis' grand slams, Mac's home run exploits, and instant replay. Anything you'd like to chat about among those things?

La Russa: Well, those are individual things, Mark, and you're right.

We have had some magic moments.

What Tatis did there in L.A., people on our club still talk about that, and how magical it was to watch it.

Mark, chasing 500 [homers] now, and his continued excellence.

And a guy like Joe [McEwing], he proves again what kinds of things that coaches at all levels talk about.

And it's just refreshing that, those lessons, where a guy will commit himself to practicing as hard as he can, and trying to learn the game properly, and just being tough as nails as far as competing, that he can be successful.

I mean, it's just delightful for all of us to watch Joe, day in and day out. He's made himself a very important guy on our team.

StLSO: Tony, we had [Post-Dispatch baseball writer] Mike Eisenbath on, and one of the things we chatted about was something that you mentioned to me in Spring Training, when the subject of J.D. Drew came up. You looked me straight in the eye, and I forget the exact number, but I think you said what J.D. Drew really needed was 1,000 professional at-bats.

La Russa: That's exactly right.

And I was reading the paper today, where Gaylen Pitts, who does a terrific job with our Memphis club, said the same thing.

I mean, [Drew] is a terrific talent, he's just not polished.

And I don't care how good a college situation you have, there's something about pro ball.

And especially when you get to the big leagues, before you have much experience.

I mean, this is the best baseball in the world. So you're going to be tested in this league.

I don't care, [if it's a] pitcher or player, it doesn't make any difference. You're going to be tested like no place else, and the only way you can pass those tests, #1, you have to have enough ability, but #2, you need to get the experience to learn how to deal with things.

StLSO: In other words, the ups-and-downs, and there have been both, for J.D. Drew this rookie season, they're not totally unexpected, are they?

La Russa: No, they're not.

Here again, he's hitting over .250, and he's looked much better since he's come back [from AAA Memphis].

He is more than surviving in this league.

And, to do that, it just shows you, how much talent he has, without any experience.

I mean, this is his first full season.

One way to look at it is that next year he'll be better, and two or three years from now, he'll be much better, and in four or five [years], he'll be in his prime.

So the key is to have a good situation here, where we have guys like Mark and Ray in their prime, and they can take a little pressure off of J.D., so he can learn.

StLSO: If I can change the subject, Tony, my wife Susan, and daughters Emma and Hannah, are vegetarians100%. Italian and Mexican restaurants are our favorites for that very reason. What are some of your favorite veggie-oriented restaurants in St. Louis?

La Russa: Well, I do a lot of the same things.

I eat a lot of pastas.

I've found you can go to Chinese restaurants and make out real well.

As far as my preference, pasta, St. Louis is a wonderful town if you like Italian food. So, downtown, right across the street from the ballpark, I go to Tony's once in a while. Tony's is a marvelous restaurant.

You go out to Clayton, you've got Dominicks and Café Napoli.

And on the Hill, there's some nice places. You've got to decide where to go, because there's all kinds of choices.

StLSO: We just passed the 30th anniversary of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin landing on the moon. I've got a Cardinals media guide in front of me here. What were you doing in 1969 when this occurred? Do you have any memories of that?

La Russa: Yeah.

In 1969, I started the year in AAA, and then got called up to the big leagues.

So I was a benchwarmer for the Oakland A's, and I don't remember, exactly, the town.

I don't know if we were home or on the road, I think we were on a road trip some place.

But I don't remember where, exactly.

StLSO: Tony, in the current edition of The New Yorkermagazine, there is a wonderful article by a writer named Malcolm Gladwell, entitled "The Physical Genius".

The article's sub-heading is 'What Do Wayne Gretzky, Yo-Yo Ma, and [a brain surgeon named] Charlie Wilson Have in Common?". Charlie Wilson is a brain surgeon who has worked at Moffitt Hospital at UC-San Francisco for thirty years. Are you familiar with this man?

La Russa: Yeah, I've heard about him. He's discussed quite a bit in the Bay Area. I've never met him. But I've read about him.

StLSO: We're sort of springing this one on you, Tony. Have you seen the article at all?

La Russa: No, I have not. It sounds very interesting.

There is no doubt in my mind that whatever the thread is that they connect those people with, it's accurate.

Because that's one of the fascinations of people that do great things.

They have certain things in common, whether it's discipline or mental approaches or strategy.

And that's why it's so useful to be able to read about it; when some people do well.

Because you can learn from it.

StLSO: I was wondering if I could share a paragraph or two with you and our listeners.

La Russa: All right.

StLSO: 'Neurosurgery is generally thought to attract the most gifted and driven of medical school graduates. Even in that rarified world, however, there are surgeons who are superstars, and surgeons who are merely very good. Charlie Wilson is one of the superstars. Those who have trained with him say, that if you showed them a dozen videotapes of different neurosurgeons in action, with the camera focused just on the hands of the surgeon, and the movements of the instruments, they could pick Wilson out in an instant...the same way an old baseball hand could look at a dozen batters in silhouette and tell you which one was Willie Mays. Charlie Wilson has a distinctive fluidity and grace.'

You knew where I going with this, didn't you?

La Russa: I think I had an idea, yes.

StLSO: There are a couple more paragraphs I'd like to run by you.

'There are thousands of people who have played in the National Hockey League over the years. But there has been only one Wayne Gretzky. Thousands of cellists play professionally all over the world, but very few will ever earn comparison with Yo-Yo Ma. People like Gretzky or Ma or Charlie Wilson all have an affinity for translating thought into action. They are what we might call physical geniuses. But what makes them so good at what they do?'

What do you think, Tony?

La Russa: Well, as I said, I think there's no doubt in my mind that there is a connection there between those great people and those different environments.

You look at baseball.

There is a very special ability that certain few players have, but it doesn't guarantee that those special-ability guys are going to be great superstars.

Because you have to have the combined with this tremendous control of the mind, and emotion, and this desire to be great.

A Ken Griffey, there have been other guys that have had tools like Ken Griffey, that never got beyond AAA, or at the big league level they were under-achievers.

But without reading it, there's no doubt in my mind that there's something [within] that article about being driven.

I think you have to be driven.

Closest to us, if fans had an opportunity to watch Mark McGwire, each and every day, they would see a driven player.

The way that he disciplines himself, pushes himself, he has these wonderful gifts.

He's a genius at hitting the ball out of the ballpark.

Nobody has that genius like Mark.

Well, there's a certain talent there that's a given.

But believe me, he maxes that talent out.

And if he didn't do all of the discipline things, and the work that he does, his talent would not be nealy as productive.

StLSO: Well, Tony, I sort of sprung this on you, and you came through with flying colors. I guess 3,000 pre-game shows will do that for you. Thanks for joining us.

La Russa: I enjoyed it very much, Mark. And if we get a win tonight, you know I'm superstitious. And I hope we can do it again.